Either Safer Networking Ltd. or Symantec leaving the Anti Spyware Coalition...

[PepiMK]

From March 2005 to December 2005, Symantec labeled Spybot-S&D as incompatible to Norton Ghost, and endangering backups, with no reason given to us in 19 months now. Since October 2005, Norton Internet Security has told users that Spybot-S&D would be incompatible and they had to remove Spybot-S&D.
Eleven months later, Symantec has given us just one explanation that was mostly invented and not fitting. Even though Symantec again promised changes, they have now released Norton Internet Security 2007 which again urges the user to uninstall Spybot-S&D.

We would have loved to work with them to remove any incompatibility, but although they were eager to tell their customers about these so-called 'incompatibilities', even threats of legal action could not persuade Symantec to give us any details. Well, actually they promised they would send us details, but those promises haven't been fullfilled for nearly a year. Is Symantecs Quality Assurance department so bad that they can't either find the old reports or re-test?

Both of us are members of the ASC, the Anti Spyware Coalition, a group of anti-spyware companies working together - in theory. The ASC has discussed Best Practices for half a year now. Sadly, this seems to only affect practices against malware creators, while coalition members are allowed to fight each other as much as they want.

If we created spyware instead of anti-spyware, we probably would laugh various body parts at seeing how one anti-spyware application removes the other.

Arbitration by the ASC has only resulted in broken promises by Symantec.

We will therefore bring a motion in front of the ASC to expel Symantec for damaging the ASC through its practices of illegal improper competition and libel, resulting even in malware creators being able to spread their malware better. Should this motion be rejected by a majority of ASC members, we most likely leave this coalition as it would then appear that ASC is favoring libel as a proper way of competition.

If you think that anti-spyware companies should fight spyware creators instead of each other, please send an email to ASC members of your choice, found here, and/or to the ASC itself, at .


Following that, thinking on how we could stop Symantec, we have two options: taking expensive legal steps, or behaving the same way as Symantec, accepting the removal of a competitor as a "legit" step.
Should we add detection for Norton Internet Security 2006 and 2007 as Malware or Possibly UnPopular Software (PUPS)?

* Yes, detect NIS completely!
* Yes, but detect only some harmless files to wake up people.
* No, please waste our donations to go through legal channels, instead of using them to fight malware.
* None of the above.

Please note that under ASCs definition, technology that is implemented in ways that impairs user control over material changes that affecs their system security, in other words software that urges changes that reduce system security like NIS does, falls under the term Spyware (and Other Potentially Unwanted Technologies), so adding NIS to the detection would not be revenge, but a strict following of the ASC definitions of that malware description.

Please feel free to vote in this topic, and/or leave your comments, especially if you vote for option 4 (None of the above).

[bluuee]

Hallo,
ich fühle mich da jetzt wenig angesprochen, zumal ich die Dienste von Symantec nicht in Anspruch nehme/nehmen werde, und dank des ausschließlichen Angebots für neuere Platformen nicht nehmen könnte. Wenn ich mich richtig erinnere, macht das f-secure mit ad-aware genauso. Ich hätte die Lavasoft Software erstmal deinstallieren müssen, und darauf würde ich genausowenig verzichten wollen. Nachdem ich weiß was Spybot bietet und ich sehr zufrieden bin, verstehe ich das jetzt nicht ganz.
Ich hoffe, und wünsche, dass Ihr stolz auf eure Software seid und euch nicht unterkriegen lasst, denn die, die Spybot kennen, die würden darauf nicht verzichten wollen!!
Mein Antivirenprogramm erkennt auch nicht alles, aber Spybot erkennt's!
Gruß
P.S. Wenn Symantec Malware auf seiner Software hat, dann gehört das auch in Spybot!

[GT500]

As a PC technician, I cannot support Symantec or Norton in any way.

I say detect them completely. Better to have a fool-proof method of removing Norton than using Symantec's uninstall utilities...

Anyone who doesn't want to get rid of Norton can simply leave the dialog box unchecked. And Spybot S&D can warn users with Norton installed that it will show up in the list of results, similarly to the way it warns you about Ad-Aware compatibility issues.

[Benda]

Ich finde Spybot ist Klasse und Ihr solltet euch nicht unterkriegen lassen ich habe früher auch Symantec genutzt und war nicht grad begeistert...

Ich sag mal so wenn man schon in einer solchen Organisation ist, sollte man sich nicht gegenseitig runter machen nur weil man ein paar andere Vorstellungen hat wie etwas abzulaufen hat. Die Anti Spyware Koalition sollte auch an die Aufgabe denken, die PC Anwender zu schützen, zusammenzuarbeiten und gemeinsam Lösungen zu finden.

Das ganze macht den Eindruck als komme man sich im Kindergarten vor wo der eine dem anderen den Lutscher nicht gönnt.

[djpailo]

Symantec think they are so great. I full support safer-netowrking and all their products.

[r00st3r]

Symantec needs to grow up or it will be killed!

Stand up for what is right!

[CelticFerret]

I registered so I could post this. Initially I agree with GT500. However it is my hope that Symantec will soon take care of itself, as it were. Let me explain:

I have used Norton Utilities across two platforms since I could back up my computer on <100 floppy disks; over a decade. I am saddened by what Symantec has done to the once great Norton diagnostic tools. Norton Utilities is destined to be buried, as Symantec has bought and buried so many fine tools in the past. Remember ProCOMM Plus? How about the Sygate firewall - the firewall product I used and recommended until recently. For the complete "Wall of Shame" list go to

Discontinued Products
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT...a?OpenDocument

Or if you'd really rather not visit Symantec's javascript-infested site here is the list (I rather think it speaks for itself):

A
ACT! 2000
ACT! for Lotus Notes
ACT! For MAC
ACT! For the HP
ACT! For the Newton 1.06b
ACT! For the Psion
ACT! Mobile LinkC

C
Café’
Caffeine
Central Point AntiVirus (CPAV)
Central Point Backup
Commserver
CommSuite
CPAV
CrashDefender Deluxe 2.0
CU-See Me
CyberJack
C++

D
dbANYWHERE
Developer’s Advantage
Direct Access
DiskClone Corporate
DiskClone Extra Strengh
DiskDoubler
Disklock
DOS Fax
DOS Fax Pro
Hide details for EE

E
Echo Lake
Emergency Disk
Enterprise Backup
Enterprise Developer
Expert
Expose

F
FastBack
FaxLite for Macintosh
FaxPro for Macintosh
File Manager
Flinstones Screen Saver
Form Flow

G
Grandview
Greatworks
GuideMaker

H
Healthy PC
Healthy PC.com

I
Installer Pro
Intermission Screen Saver
Internet FastFind
Iware Connect 3.1
I-Zip

J
JITspeed
JustConnect
Just Enough Pascal

L
Landlord

M
Mac Tools
Merge/Convert
Mobile Essentials
More PC Tools for DOS/Windows
Multi-Scope

N
NAS/NASEE
NetSatisFAXtion
NetWork Administration
Norton 2000 1.0
Norton Administrator for Networks
Norton Antivirus Corporate Edition 6.0
Norton Backup
Norton Commander 1.0 for OS/2
Norton Commander 5.0 for DOS
Norton Commander for Windows 95
Norton Crashguard
Norton Desktop
Norton Desktop Administrator
Norton Disklock
Norton Editor
Norton Ghost 5.1
Norton Ghost for Netware 2.0
Norton Navigator
Norton NT Tools
Norton Safe on the Web
Norton Secret Stuff
Norton Speed Disk
Norton Web Security
Norton Uninstall Deluxe
Norton Your Eyes Only
Norton Zip Rescue

O
On Target
Optlink
Opus and Bill Screen Saver

P
Partition-It 1.02
PC Handyman
PC Telecommute
PC Tools
PC TuneUp
Perform
Planning and Budgeting for Windows 95
ProComm RapidRemote
Protect Your Site
Pyro!

Q
Qemm 97 9.0
Quarterdeck Utility Pack 1.0
Q&A

R
RealHelp Extra Strengh
RealHelp 1.0
Remove-IT 98 4.0
Report Maker Windows
Retriever

S
SAM
SAM Administrator
Speed Tools
SpeedDrive
SQZ!
Suitcase
Suites
S.A.F.E
Symantec AntiVirus for Palm OS
Symantec Mobile Essentials
Symantec Mobile Update 1.0

T
TalkWorks
Think C
Think Pascal
Think Reference
TimeLine
Hide details for VV
Visual Café
VisualPage
VirusSweep 2.0
VirusSweep Extra Strength

V
Visual Café
VisualPage
VirusSweep 2.0
VirusSweep Extra Strength

W
WinComm Pro
WebCompass
WinFax Scanner
WinProbe 95
Write Your Congressman

X
X Tree

I must say that Symantec and I have similiar tastes in software; as several of these products I have owned in the past.

Another big outfit that is well known for Borg-like assimilation of software is M$ itself - maybe Redmond will put Symantec out of it's misery.

Besides the resource hogging, removal problems and Trojan-like activity of Symantec's current lineup, there is that little firewall problem...

I have heard that the technique that NIS uses has been compromised, but cannot find the reference to the supporting information just now. ;(

I'm sorry my 1st post here is such a rant, but I'm disgusted with the various software brokerage houses, the inclusion of "Cinderella-ware" on new PCs, and the loss of valuable tools (Norton, Ad-Aware, etc.)

Thankfully Spybot S&D remains dependable and reliable. I believe it and SpywareBlaster should be included with all Windows installation media and am genuinely amazed they are not.
--CF

[SysEngineer]

At one time Symantec had wonderful products but they became just another resource hog. They have lost my support completely. I administer a number of networks and I currently use TrendMicro for real time protection in tandem with SpyBot. I do wish that SpyBot could jump to the next plateau and create a network version of the great tool they have. A centralized repository of definitions that lives on the server and thin client on each users machine in a domain controller environment. But yes, down with Symantec....rules were made to be followed, not open to interpretation. If the rules are wrong then there are proper channels to initiate change. If the rules state that a software package meets the criteria for malware, spyware, or simply PUPS, and a recourse is provided to prevent such programs from residing on computers, then I say eliminate them until they come into compliance with industry approved standards.

[tashi]

Originally Posted by SysEngineer

I do wish that SpyBot could jump to the next plateau and create a network version of the great tool they have. A centralized repository of definitions that lives on the server and thin client on each users machine in a domain controller environment.

FYI:

For the specific needs of corporate LANs/WANs we designed a tool called "Intranet Server for Spybot - Search & Destroy"

http://www.safer-networking.ie/en/home/index.html

[Terminator]

I've hated Norton for the last couple of years since they total my computer with NIS 2005. I don't think much to Microsoft either because of all the dogey updates that have caused all kinds of trouble for me over the years. Although I thoughly dislike Norton, Adding ANY NIS products to the definitions list would be corporate suicide since Synmantec would sue you to death and your good name would be dragged through the dirt. I personally belive the best way to go about this unfortunate mess is to just keep delveloping Spybot and getting it as good as you can and eventually people will decide to ditch NIS and its system destroying "Issues" (e.g. wreaking Outlook Express 6 and causing it to crash Windows when you try to shutdown the computer) for the better product that is Spybot.