Either Safer Networking Ltd. or Symantec leaving the Anti Spyware Coalition...

[rautamiekka]

SYMANTEC'S GOOD ?! You kidding me ! symantec s*cks !

I have always hated symantec just because its products are even worse than my bro is in annoying me. If symantec tells ya, Safer Networking, to bury or something the Spybot, just answer: "chill the f**k out **sholes" and don't care about them. Sorry for that bad language but that is what I think :bigthumb:
And if you hate something or dislike it, write it with small letters, not with the first one being big. That's the way to show you don't like what you typed using small letters.

 

[Lynn1102]

Most of these programs do some good and some not so good. Example: My son downloads lots crap and recently got a trojan virus. I tried Nortons to get rid of it and Nortons said all it good. I tried SPYBOT which also said all is good. Panda and AVG all said no problem. I updated his Win xp pro and used the monthly Windows virus removal tool. No more virus.
All programs of similar types compete with each otherr on the computer - graphics programs are a good example. Each one tries to take over the computer by insisting on opening all graphics. Same type competition with I Tunes, Nero, Roxio etc. Each wants to rule the roost. You just have to tell each one which is the boss. They can work together, but we have to tell them how to do it. I do use Nortons and Spybot and AdAware. I have no problem with any of them. I do not use TeaTimer cause it won't let me upgrade my computer. I run Spybot when I want to, not when Spybot wants to. I do not run NIS, only the virus program on this machine. I have an older version of System Works on my other machine. The only thing I don't like, is the auto renewal that goes with the 2007 Version of Nortons. First thing I did was dis-able that part.
Merry Christmas or whatever.

Lynn

 

[macbd1]

I donated to Safer Networking this morning and went to this forum for the first time, being surprised about the controversy over Symantec. I have found their Norton Internet Security to be the best I have tested and read reviews about in recent years. I have never needed Norton Ghost although I considered installing it or another cloning program when my HDD went bad recently; however, I decided to bite the bullet and reinstall the OS and everything else so I would be rid of an accumulation of 'cyber-sludge' -- so I am not personally aware of any Symantec directives to first uninstall Spybot for this program.

Here is my experience with Norton Internet Security (NIS) 2007 that I recently installed when my subscription to NIS 2006 was expiring. Incidentally, I have never encountered any such 'incompatibility' issues with prior NIS installations (since 2002.) When I did encounter the warning about Spybot being incompatible with the installation of NIS 2007, and to first uninstall it, I was surprised. However, I quickly learned that this only concerned the 'installation' of NIS 2007 and that I could subsequently reinstall Spybot-S&D after NIS was installed, without causing problems for either program. I did this in short order without thoughts of any devious intentions by Symantec; I even thought to myself that Spybot must indeed be powerful for a large company like Symantec not being able to design an installation program to ignore the presence of Spybot -- also, why Spybot didn't have means for my disabling it temporarily.

So, in impromptu fashion, I voted 'None of the Above' in the poll, especially since the third option seemed to be misworded if not misleading -- with the words "DO NOT (waste)" being omitted from the option, "No, please waste our donations to go through legal channels, instead of using them to fight malware." How could such an omission or mis-wording be overlooked 'unintentionally' for an important poll when it changes the entire meaning of this option -- who would ever vote to waste donations...?

Now, having Scotch-Irish demeanor I have made plenty of phone-calls and written bunches of letters over the years concerning matters that I felt were important to be righted. And, if I had spent untold hours developing, managing and operating the Spybot program and web site (and caring so much about its quality and longevity) I would likely be taking action with Symantec myself.

However, having just now learned more about the Symantec company and its officers and policies from an internet search, I am wondering whether Symantec indeed has devious and possibly illegal intentions against Safer Networking's Spybot-S&D. Information in the following links may be pertinent to those feeling strongly enough about the subject issue to follow-up meaningfully:

Symantec's Corp. Officers:
http://www.symantec.com/about/profile/management/executives/index.jsp

Locations (found a surprise here):
http://www.symantec.com/about/profile/locations/index.jsp

Code of Conduct
(At least an indicator of their professionalism, much more than most companies):
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/89/89422/pdf/CodeOfConduct_13106.pdf

From my experiences in contacting folks at both large and small companies, I should think that Symantec's people would be more than willing to discuss the 'incompatibility' issue with PepiMK representatives and resolve matters amicably. Conversely, if a case can be made that Symantec is (even with an unproved 'likely') intentionally attempting to harm Spybot and its developers, THEN THE WHOLE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT IT, not just those at this forum or who may happen to read Spybot's home page info.

I intend to write a letter of inquiry to Symantec's CEO today, how about you? The bit about the whole world needing to know about any wrongful intentions, if true, will be highlighted but in a non-accusatory manner at this time.

It will also be interesting to read about any follow-up at the Spybot home page, or this forum.

Best Wishes,
Mac
PS - Everyone should be so fortunate as to live only 300 steps from their office.

Well...now a month later (12/18/06) and no response from Symantec. I am surprised; this is the first time in my history of calling and writing company CEO's that I haven't at least received an acknowledgement....and most times they've had specifics about their follow-up.

I also checked the ASC web site today where I find 'no' additions during the past six months or more. Neither do I find 'any' public statements or articles concerning ASC activities during this time. This makes me wonder if PepiMK's plans with ASC that started this thread are now moot, if ASC has gone to its demise like its predecessor. Regardless, the FAQ's that describe ASC and its purposes seem to preclude any means of their resolving the Spybot-S&D vs. Symantec differences anyway, check it out here:

http://www.antispywarecoalition.org/about/FAQ.html

I currently schedule Spybot-S&D to run at 3AM each day, and NIS 2007 at 5AM. Even though I'm usually around the web each day for quite awhile, Spybot usually finds nothing (I'm pretty well immunized) while NIS may find only a couple of additional tracking cookies.

So...with NIS 2007 (not 2006) now being found to be a decent if not good to excellent anti-spyware product (also proclaimed as such by professional reviews) I'm asking myself why waste memory/resources to run Spybot-S&D as well -- and, yes, I have read that running two anti-spyware products on a single computer can cause problems, much like running two anti-virus programs simultaneously.

Therefore, it seems that I need to continue with Spybot-S&D (having excellent personal results and reviews) and replace NIS 2007 with a 'straight' anti-virus program -- or continue with NIS 2007 and drop Spybot.

That's about all I can offer here that might be of any help to others. Competition in the anti-spyware world has certainly become more fierce with no end in sight.

Regards,
Mac
---------------------------
Today's popular (to some) tee-shirt containing the image of Ernesto 'Che' Guevara exclaims, "Fight Oppression," while in truth his great "revolutionary tribunals" murdered thousands of innocent 'enemies of the revolution,' while he proclaimed "Individualism must disappear!" His large mural hangs in Cuba's Ministry of the Interior, the headquarters for Cuba's KGB and STASI trained secret police of which Guevara was a founder. This setting needs to be added to the tee-shirt for all to see and understand the travesty.

 

[[HDRW]Smee]

Now, the biggest player in this game is Microsoft and I would be very surprised if they will add NIS to their detection list since their behaviour in the past has been far from impeccable, but if they did then Symantec might sit up and take notice.

And, with M$ purchase of Massive Inc. they have entered the spyware INDUSTRY. Massive's SDK is used by game creators to integrate ad pushing into the games and the gathering of personally identifiable information from gamers and others. The executables are infected, but m4d.dll must be present for it to communicate with the author. However, if it isn't there the software won't run. It is alleged that the coding for the data gathering is in that file. http://nationalcheeseemporium.org/

Bill got it and turned it over to the xbox bunch, but it infects PCs and all console games too. Wonder why Bill would need something like that?

 

[chpalmer]

I would also vote no confidence in the "Anti Spyware Coalition".

I personally, as well as many others I know have given up on Symantec products years ago, opting for other vendors products. There's just better written software out there.

 

[CalvinOZ]

Symantec Marketing Tactics

Hi all,

One thing I have noticed in my part of the world (Australia) of late is that it may be VERY difficult to do anything about the Symantec invasion of systems. A LOT of machines come pre-installed with the 'free' (read trial for 90 days, and pester the life out of you for payment) versions of the Norton products.

This leaves any support person in a bad position - no way to easily remove the Symantec products You can't even 'reload' the machine from scratch because the only install media usually provided is a 'ghost' or similar image on a partition on the HDD, which 'puts the machine back' to the factory installed condition (complete with Norton products again !)

I suspect we have little hope of ever changing Symantec's behaviour whilst they are allowed to continue with practises like this !

Calvin.

 

[xmarket88]

Symantec-the worst products which became

Well,now 4 years,i bought form internet a symantec product,and guess what?i was infected once with the instalations kit,and when i send to support frmo norton,they answered that it was my fault.i reinstalled windows 2000,and then again i installed and guess what?dammit,my pc were more slow than ever,i deletes my symantec product from pc,and i sweared that i will not use anymore that product,i was very dissapointed my opionon is that they are trying to monopolize the marketing by "killing" first those free software which enourages the fight against the spyware and etc..my opionon guys,is that you should fight for your own rights,do not esitated,i will personaly rather donate to your campaign insteed of buyng stupid products from norton who destroy and slow your computes..good job guys keep the good job,i am proud to be one of Spybot users,and i am very pleased you do have my full support! Congrats!

 

[mike123]

Voted none of the above in the poll.

And found me a big issue with this so-called incompatibility - while it might say on a NIS 07 box about the incompatibility thing, I updated my 06 NIS about 30 minutes ago, online, downloaded the update, and discovered thta it's "incompatible" with my favourite security program bar none. Subsequently discovered this forum. Joy did not abound. Anyway, I naturally didn't uninstall Spybot, and carried on, and what eventually happened was that it corrupted the installation of nothing except AntiSpam, which is just about crap enough for me to live without it. Still, suffice it to say that I was n-o-t h-a-p-p-y. Next year? NOD32.

And about a posible cause of action for the Spybot team, seeing as I didn't vote for any of the other (cheeky!) ones?

(and despite the fact that it's either a massive oversight or a blatant attempt to crush competition under a mass of corporate flab to not ensure that NIS can install with Spybot in place)

Here's my solution: The installer picks up on SPybot v1.4 as incompatible. So, I figure a fundamentally identical new version with a slightly different name or number (may I suggest 1.5 as a catchy option?) might well slip through the net. Worth a go at least?

 

[Frank C]

Symantec Customer Care

I was running my Symantec subscription down to zero intending to switch my anti virus and firewall to Grisoft AVG. With fourteen days to go Symantec decided to renew my subscription and charge my credit card! This of course was a "service" to me. I wish I had gotten such good care when I attempted to report a false positive to Symantec. The Tech in (foreign country) didn't even know what a false positive was!
Frank C

 

[Lynn1102]

Frank, go to their web site and opt our of the auto renewal thing. I think you can do it in your profile settings. Hope the renewal starts after the old one expires instead of right away. Don't remember who, but someone just got into lots of trouble for something like that. People renewed the contract and lost the remaining time on their present contract.

Lynn

 

[jensrdk]

Well, pride and bigotry are deadly sins....-!!

For me it is quite obvious what kind of "business" Symantec is into!- I think they try to eliminate and damage SpybotSD because it takes costumers away from them, plain & simple!- AND they do types of marketing stunts and aggressive behavior that are so common for american vendors-; Every year they "update" or issue a new NIS or NAV200x but these new apps are built on the former software architecture but with some small changes to the dialog boxes!
Customers think they get (like me a couple of times-!) a brand new and greatly improved program, but it's like old wine on new bottles-! AND it's expensive...- If you try to be smart and just keep your app from the former year, you will see that sooner or later the support and update service will be discontinued, so you will be forced to buy a newer one,- shrewed, yes!! Meanwhile most ordinary, trustful PC owners will go on buying the new sec suite they offer, 2005-2006-2007 +...... believing the older app they have are outdated and unsafe. Symantec does NO effort to explain customers that they can keep up safety without buying the new app-! To me that is a kind of theft-!! and very illoyal & dishonest.-
So, Symantec, shape up or ship out-!! This month I'm NOT going to renew my subscribtion for def updates to NAV2006, - I will uninstall it and find another AV client, possibly a free service, some say they are pretty good...- like a SpybotSD for virus!
So: Instead of buying expensive, obstructive, annoying, resource draining, overweight/bulky security suites from arrogant or hostile vendors, do this:

Install a good, simple firewall (freeware) AND a good AV serv. from a reasonable author with respect and devotion to customers....-
AND above all: SpybotSD

 

[jensrdk]

reinstall=renew....-

Frank, go to their web site and opt our of the auto renewal thing. I think you can do it in your profile settings. Hope the renewal starts after the old one expires instead of right away. Don't remember who, but someone just got into lots of trouble for something like that. People renewed the contract and lost the remaining time on their present contract.

Lynn

I think you can uninstall, clean the system(+registry) for remaining files and settings and then...... just reinstall NAV with the installer program you probably saved from the last install...! Then the update service starts all over again with a new one year service.......-!

HAAahh-!

 

[jensrdk]

config - config - config......

I have noticed alot of talk about norton adaware mcafee and even pccillen mucking around with spybot and my view is that some of them are just bad configuration or poor management on the users part

norton by many technicians hes been classed as a mediocer product

mcafee Ive heard alot of complaints of its misbehaviour

and adaware Ive read reports of it conflicting with spybot
but as far as im concerned it all comes down to how you set it up

because of all the increased malware spyware and adware attacks by hackers and non trusted companies anti virus companies have tried to catch up by introducing what you might call silent scanning to detect what they think is malisious software to keep one step ahead some have even introduced regestry control into their products to have better comtrol against hackers

if i get a product like adaware conflicting with my other security programs like spybot search and destroy and teatimer I configure them until I get no more conflicts and when I had norton the program did conflict but was soon rectified by changing settings

I now run bit defender and it cooperates with spybot better than ive seen any product and as a strange coincident I know someone else who runs avg
pccillen adaware and spybot sandd and not a single trouble
..
basicly it all comesdown to this every security program wants complete control to do the job it was designed for but not all parts of the programs work as good as others by putting the one you want on to run the main components first and configuring the other programs around them their should not be a problem in the world even if the program says so because you have to configure them around them and tell the program to ignore or standby sincronise around eachother or just disable theparts that dont work for you

You have a point there: some sofisticated firewalls keeps track of important runtime files's MD5 sum and other system parameters like start up sections and when antivirus/spyware/adware apps also do that, they get into conflict with each other, freezing up the PC with the CPU running at 100% while the apps fight......- So: people should configure the apps so they do not make the same checks; that in turn requires a little knowledge and people are reluctant to get it, for some reason......-

 

[jensrdk]

windows defender a lame duck-!!

I agree with 7cures, I currently have the Norton 360 Beta and Spybot with TeaTimer enabled and have no problems. I justed ignored Norton's warning about Spybot being installed and everything works fine.

Well, Windows Defender, I think is worthless.PERIOD!!- It rarely detects anything unlike other much better apps will do, so why keep it???

 

[jensrdk]

From March 2005 to December 2005, Symantec labeled Spybot-S&D as incompatible to Norton Ghost, and endangering backups, with no reason given to us in 19 months now. Since October 2005, Norton Internet Security has told users that Spybot-S&D would be incompatible and they had to remove Spybot-S&D.
Eleven months later, Symantec has given us just one explanation that was mostly invented and not fitting. Even though Symantec again promised changes, they have now released Norton Internet Security 2007 which again urges the user to uninstall Spybot-S&D.

We would have loved to work with them to remove any incompatibility, but although they were eager to tell their customers about these so-called 'incompatibilities', even threats of legal action could not persuade Symantec to give us any details. Well, actually they promised they would send us details, but those promises haven't been fullfilled for nearly a year. Is Symantecs Quality Assurance department so bad that they can't either find the old reports or re-test?

Both of us are members of the ASC, the Anti Spyware Coalition, a group of anti-spyware companies working together - in theory. The ASC has discussed Best Practices for half a year now. Sadly, this seems to only affect practices against malware creators, while coalition members are allowed to fight each other as much as they want.

If we created spyware instead of anti-spyware, we probably would laugh various body parts at seeing how one anti-spyware application removes the other.

Arbitration by the ASC has only resulted in broken promises by Symantec.

We will therefore bring a motion in front of the ASC to expel Symantec for damaging the ASC through its practices of illegal improper competition and libel, resulting even in malware creators being able to spread their malware better. Should this motion be rejected by a majority of ASC members, we most likely leave this coalition as it would then appear that ASC is favoring libel as a proper way of competition.

If you think that anti-spyware companies should fight spyware creators instead of each other, please send an email to ASC members of your choice, found here, and/or to the ASC itself, at asc@cdt.org.


Following that, thinking on how we could stop Symantec, we have two options: taking expensive legal steps, or behaving the same way as Symantec, accepting the removal of a competitor as a "legit" step.
Should we add detection for Norton Internet Security 2006 and 2007 as Malware or Possibly UnPopular Software (PUPS)?

* Yes, detect NIS completely!
* Yes, but detect only some harmless files to wake up people.
* No, please waste our donations to go through legal channels, instead of using them to fight malware.
* None of the above.

Please note that under ASCs definition, technology that is implemented in ways that impairs user control over material changes that affecs their system security, in other words software that urges changes that reduce system security like NIS does, falls under the term Spyware (and Other Potentially Unwanted Technologies), so adding NIS to the detection would not be revenge, but a strict following of the ASC definitions of that malware description.

Please feel free to vote in this topic, and/or leave your comments, especially if you vote for option 4 (None of the above).

I do not think that anybody should be so scared about legal action in this matter: Symantec can use all the money in the world for lawsuits, they will have a bad case in Europe, anyway: not many courts of law like vending bullies and improper business behavior that reeks of monopoly/kartel forming from BIG American companies.- If the definition of spyware matches the behavior of NIS and they do not react or respond to several letters/messages, they are not winning any sympathy this side of the Atlantic ocean, where I suppose the court will be set.....- Show a little courage instead of always running like scared rabbits, there are too many cowards out there these days....-

 

[ScottCraig]

Symantacky

No-do not call that suite mal/spy/adware. We all know what it is. Those that don't find out soon enough. Those that don't notice--you'll never reach them.
Do please explain the truth, even in program, if you detect symantec programs on the system.
The truth is on your side. Do what you can to get it out. It's a sad fact sometimes it's better to be big and well connected than right.
Do please offer removal tools.
I just got a new system with prepackaged software. The first thing I did was remove it, and install AntiVir and Spybot s&d.
I would appreciate a one button solution to automate it. Perhaps a clean-up feature not specifically targeting them, add a few other pests like AOL and MSN and other pre-package leeches. Explain why, or not.
When I get rich and famous, I'll send you money and be your spokesman.
Scott

 

[Frank C]

Removing Norton 2006

Hi,
I had great trepidation because of what I had read about removing Norton.
I worried for naught.
I removed Norton IS and installed Grisoft AVG with firewall.
I followed the recommended steps of Steve Winograd (MVP) here:

http://www.microsoft.com/communitie...&pt=&catlist=&dglist=&ptlist=&exp=&sloc=en-us

I didn’t need the Norton removal tool.
I downloaded the new AV and firewall
I disconnected from the internet
I used Add Remove Programs in the Control Panel to remove Norton I S
I only needed to do this once.
I installed Grisoft AVG and firewall and reconnected to the internet
The only folders left over were:
C:\Program Files\Symantec – empty
and
C:\Program Files\Common Files\Symantec Shared – one folder & one file
C:\Program Files\Common Files\Symantec Shared\CCPD-LC – two files
I deleted these.
The AVG scan took 38 minuets against Norton’s 90 minuets. I think I’ll like it!

 

[idahopcwizard]

NOD 32 - the best AV program

I run a computer repair business, and I when a customer needs a newer PC, I usually buy a dell. I know that my customers could just as easily buy it for themselves, however, when they go to turn it on they will quickly find that it is probably worse than an older 1Ghz machine because of all the junk Dell puts on it.

I know Dell does that in order to sell the PC cheaper, which is fine for me because I take it all off and put my own stuff on it. The first thing to go is Norton and MacAfee. They are total system hogs and slow the computer down substantially-not to mention they make boot up time totally unacceptable. Trend Micro is not so bad, but I still prefer NOD32 over all of them. It is fast to load, quick to detect malware and viruses, and has a very small system print. The entire program is a 10 or 15mb download and the renewal costs less than the initial purchase.

I install spybot on every system I work on, including new computers. It is the best when used in conjunction with a properly configured NOD32 antivirus software. (NOD32 by default turns of malware detection in order to speed up scanning, but you will still be safe from Trojans and viruses.)

Check them out with a free 30 day trial: http://www.eset.com
:bigthumb:

 

[hurstbeck]

I have just had to uninstall spybot in order to install NIS2007 am I safe to reinstall my spybot??

 

[idahopcwizard]

I have just had to uninstall spybot in order to install NIS2007 am I safe to reinstall my spybot??

I would reccomend not installing NAV at all. Sell it on ebay, install spybot, and then buy and install NOD32. You'll be better off, you'll enjoy your computer expierence much more, and you'll be safer from viruses and malware.

I have a virus in an email that I use to test online scanners. When I try to download it the online scanner (from hotmail or yahoo) should be able to detect it and not allow me to download the file to my computer. Hotmail uses Trend Micro and it caught the virus everytime. Yahoo, however, uses Norton, and for over a year it never caught the virus, and it was a very well known virus. It recognizes it now, but it didn't before. And when I would download it to my PC, NOD32 was all over it like fat on cheese. From that point on I will never recommend Norton again--(it used to be my favorite.)

My advice:
1-burn Norton
2-install spybot
3-buy NOD32 (free 30 day trial)
4-you won't regret it