Either Safer Networking Ltd. or Symantec leaving the Anti Spyware Coalition...

[hurstbeck]

I would reccomend not installing NAV at all. Sell it on ebay, install spybot, and then buy and install NOD32. You'll be better off, you'll enjoy your computer expierence much more, and you'll be safer from viruses and malware.

I have a virus in an email that I use to test online scanners. When I try to download it the online scanner (from hotmail or yahoo) should be able to detect it and not allow me to download the file to my computer. Hotmail uses Trend Micro and it caught the virus everytime. Yahoo, however, uses Norton, and for over a year it never caught the virus, and it was a very well known virus. It recognizes it now, but it didn't before. And when I would download it to my PC, NOD32 was all over it like fat on cheese. From that point on I will never recommend Norton again--(it used to be my favorite.)

My advice:
1-burn Norton
2-install spybot
3-buy NOD32 (free 30 day trial)
4-you won't regret it

Thanx for the advice idahopcwizard, does NOD32 have a firewall incorperarted in its system or would I have to find a compatible firewall to work alongside it

 

[idahopcwizard]

Use the free ZoneAlarm firewall with NOD32

Thanx for the advice idahopcwizard, does NOD32 have a firewall incorperarted in its system or would I have to find a compatible firewall to work alongside it

I would use the free Zone Alarm firewall, it will work for you. NOD32 scans all incoming and outgoing Internet traffic and will block or prevent a trojen or virus from infiltrating your machine.

I only use Windows firewall because I don't like messing with them (I like to game, and pesky firewalls make life difficult.) :red:

http://www.zonelabs.com/store/content/catalog/products/sku_list_za.jsp?dc=12bms&ctry=US&lang=en&lid=nav_za

 

[BigRedNeck]

I have to agree with most of the replies here (I do not recommend any Symantec product), however I must also call out Safer Networking concerning their debacle with the intrusive and damaging DRM (root-kits) installed by some Sony products that were given a pass and ignored by Safer Networking who refused to add them to the list of definitions.

I find it patently hypocritical and shameful to criticize Symantec while letting Sony dictate your tune.

If the Sony issue has not yet been rectified, Safer Networking lacks credibility in the Symantec issue.

 

[7cures]

more thoughts...

I have to agree with redneck... It's just my approach has always been, use what's available, until something better comes along. Hell, until two years ago, I was happy w/windows98. 2000 was a piece of crap, xp is invaded every month, and linux requires a little command line savvy, or at least, vi savvy! Being an old BSD apprentice, as well as doing the dos-e-do for over a decade and a half, I was TIRED of typing. Now here's a story; I was in the midst of downloading something or other, when both spybot and NIS are alarming me DANGER! video.codec virus! NIS wouldn't kill it, and would not quarantine either. Spybot to the rescue. I killed it three times with the standard spyware hunt, then broke it's legs with system internal scan, then successfully quarantined it by manually dragging the cloaking icon ( Spyware buster or something ) into the quarantine area of NIS. And it worked!! If spybot had a quarantine cage, NIS would have been a completely useless bystander. P.S. I sent Symantec that little jewel, from quarantine, and u know what. They correctly ID it then told me it would require assisted removal. Darned right. Safer networking to the rescue! I still keep both, because NIS has saved my system in the past. Both applications together make a formidable defense! JavaCools gets a mention here, 'cause it correctly ID'd the menace first!:bigthumb: :bigthumb:

 

[idahopcwizard]

Nod32

P.S. I sent Symantec that little jewel, from quarantine, and u know what. They correctly ID it then told me it would require assisted removal. Darned right. Safer networking to the rescue! I still keep both, because NIS has saved my system in the past. Both applications together make a formidable defense! JavaCools gets a mention here, 'cause it correctly ID'd the menace first!:bigthumb: :bigthumb:

Check out NOD32's reputation--100% detection on viruses in the "wild"-or viruses that haven't been updated into the definitions. I haven't found a foe that NOD32 hasn't been able to stop. It scans incoming and outgoing internet traffic, as well as programs and rootkits. You can aslo set it to scan certain email and internet ports for even more protection.

http://www.eset.com
100% detetion: http://www.eset.com/company/200612.pdf

 

[jules_swest]

poll

I'd have gone for none of these.

Instead of spending money on legal channels (just the lawyers get rich in that case)-how about spending some of the money on publicity? Of course stating that SBSD is compatible with Norton-being careful at the same time not to slander Symatic or whatever they are.

Aim publicity at the pc magazine sector. eg computer active, webuser etc.

I'll probably email one of the coalition members, but would appreciate guidance in what to say as I'm not very technical.

 

[Lynn1102]

I have Nortons, Spybot, and Adaware all installed on this machine and have no problems with any of them. They co-exist fine. I had a problem with spybot, but after getting rid of tea timer, all work ok. Tea Timer would not let me do hardly anything without popping up and telling me I had a problem.
As for the install, if you read the instructions from Nortons, and remove spybot till you install Nortons, then reinstall Spybot, all is good. To remove and re-install Spybot takes about 2 minutes tops. You guy have spent hours on here complaining about it. I talked to my local dealer about this and he was aware of all the complaints - he said it sounds like his kids when one gets a bigger cookie than the other. At this point, I think you are giving Spybot a bad name because of all the complaining.
When you install similar programs on a system, each one will try to take first place. Media player is first. Install Real player and it knocks out media player and take first place. Same with Quicktime, ITunes and all the rest. They all want to open every song or every video you have on the system or try to download. You have to make them behave the way you want them to, just like the kids.
Install Nero, Nero takes over - install Roxio and it takes over from Nero. This is a normal (if you can call it that) windows operation. I haven't had a virus attack in years with my setup. I have some spyware and some ads that spybot missed and adaware missed. I did have to find them and manually remove them, so nothing is perfect. I like and use all of them.



Lynn

 

[semmel]

I work in computer support, and I have seen the weirdest things connected with Norton - slowing the PC down terribly, disabling network or internet capabilities, I even once had a brand-new PC and was supposed to install Norton on it - it crashed during installation and refused to uninstall the regular way!
At clients I usually recommend to dump it and go with one of the not so huge companies (i.e. McAfee isn't better either), and either I'm a good sales person (ick!) or people agree with my argumentation...

I'm not sure if detecting and possibly removing Norton will solve the issue - most likely it'll cause more problems. On the other hand what else is there to do?

I would definitely go ahead with the motion to have them kicked out of the Antispyware club (if this has not happened yet - didn't read the whole thread - just found it).

If you want to detect it as PUP, do it the same way as with the ebay toolbar: give the OPTION to remove it (leave the checkbox unchecked) - Norton is a slight bit better than having no protection at all, and removing all protection is not a good choice either. Also add a good detailed info text to it.

I have worked on literally hundreds of computers, and Spybot is on the top of my list of must-have programs - keep going!

 

[gideon]

Recently joined this forum and found this debate on Norton, I purchasd the product thinking I was doing the right thing, regret it crashed and locked my PC. I then had to clean the HDD and clean install my O/S. The norton disks are now at the bottom of the pile and will never see the light of day, what a waste of money.:sad:

 

[Jackbratt1976]

S vs N

From what I've seen here I think the majority would agree that if it's a choice of Norton 2007 or Spybot S&D in combination with another anti-virus, they will choose to keep Spybot and dump Norton, I know that I did. I have Yahoo mail, which as we all know uses Norton, and have gotten infected attachments from people who later told me they sent no attachment. Their system couldn't possibly be infected they would tell me, because they had Norton(ha!). I got my first real desktop 2 .5 years ago and it 2 weeks before the vaunted Norton was chopped to pirces and spit out along with my OS. I had to go purchase a new copy of Windows XP because the partition was parted so the OEM was gone too. Then I learned about recovery discs,lol:red:. The same with Venus Spy-Trap. Then I tried Webroot Spysweeper which worked fine until I tried to install a program that required using the password, well I had made such a cryptic note to self for the password that I couldn't decipher or remember it, big joke on me! Since the password never goes upstream it can't be retrieved or reset . Then I found out about Spybot from a professor who teaches IT courses, hallelujah! It has saved me many times when McAfee has fallen flat on face, that and ZoneAlarm, recommended by the same teacher. I took those two in addition to McAfee, it was just about impenetrable. Then McAfee changed their suite and is no longer compatible with anything. Well being stingy I left McAfee on the desktop, but I had just bought a laptop and that's where the Spybot and the other programs are at or going to be . The whole thing makes me want to say that ever famous phrase "Why can't we all just get along?". After I paid for McAfee's new suite I kept getting alerts, penetrations, and glitches that kept shutting down the various security programs. So I called up McAfee, since they were the priciest I figured they could afford to pay support on the weekends which is always when the interesting things happen to ones PC, and asked him what this error message meant and told him what happened. After a few questions he then informed me like I was an idiot child that for McAfee to work properly there had to be no other security programs on the computer because their program needed to have exclusive use of some common files that most security programs use. In other words it was built to not play well with others . Then why are they common files? I will definitely not be renewing my subscription to McAfee when it expires. There is a tempermental but brilliant man in Croatia making a program called Remove-IT Pro XT which seems to be quit efficient and if you have the knowledge or the nerve also gets you into the guts of the system. Me I don't touch 7/8 of that stuff, but it's there if needed. Added Spybot and I'm going to re-install ZoneAlarm on the laptop that I took off the desktop and that's the last of my rant on the subject (had to let it out somewhere,lol).

 

[nOInfectIOn]

It is not only NIS - the public beta "Norton360" warned me too, while I was installing it,
and suggested - how surprising - the complete deinstallation of S&D!
This yellow procedure makes a really bad impression!
My personal standard-arguments for the annually yellow purchasing:
"play safe", "it's better to be on the safe side", "better safe than sorry" ... et cetera
But now I am really not sure of next upgrade any more.
Greetings from good old Germany, noi-

 

[Rigatoni]

A lot of people think that Norton products ARE malware! I made the mistake of using Norton products and they were next to useless, actually WORSE than useless, in protecting my system. I say fight fire with fire and see how Norton like it! :devilpoin:

 

[Alan D]

I used Norton for three years, assuming it was the best because so popular. But I didn't like the senseless battle it seemed to have with Windows Defender, and when I needed to renew my subscription, I found it impossible to navigate the website properly. So it seemed simplest just to ditch it there and then, and change (to the AVG Internet Security Suite).

Then I discovered the complexities of uninstalling it - it wouldn't uninstall cleanly in the usual way, and needed the special 'Norton Removal tool'. My heart was in my mouth throughout the process until I finally cleared out the last vestiges of it, by which time it was definitely a case of 'good riddance'.

 

[7cures]

Well...
Since I last wrote on the subject, I have shifted away from NIS. I still have it in my system, but since i am able to manipulate my XPSP2 system to do everything but cook me dinner, I am loathe to change my bodyguards. I kinda look at Symantec as my Department of Defense. And it has successfully responded to some threats, and the firewall is sound. Safer Networking is my CIA. Sorry,for the analogy guys. I am trying to be positive about about all this. I simply get the "Straight Poop" from Safer Networking, and use it's agents to annihilate any threats.Java Cools is my Secret Service, and it works wonderfully in tandem with Safer Networking. If I turn off IE protection in one to make changes, the other responds in kind, allowing seamless changes to my system. So, I have the best of all worlds, and am loathe to change. And, Secunia.com is my UN. I go to them for advisories, and advise all to do the same. Their System Checker is the best in the business.
Running Grid applications fulltime as I do (World Community Grid), I simply do not care for turf wars. There is too much computing and crunching of terrible importance to be swayed into this argument. But, whatever may come, I am behind Team Spybot to the end!!!:angel:

 

[sprint250]

Symantec

I am fairly new to todays computers.
I upgraded from a VIC 20 in 1999 to a Windows 95/98 machine.Had to learn alot ,quickly,as I had to basicly hot rod the "new platform" to get it to perform acceptably. Faster processor, more ram, bigger HD , some cards ,all the usual tricks.
It was costing a little extra to do it this way but I justified it because I was learning at the time.
What I ended up learning is this:
Computers are marketed like cars,use them for about 5 years then trade them in on something new.There will always be something new in the works ready to obsolete what you just bought the day you walk out of the store.
Forget about any support after 5 (to 7? dreaming) years.

Sadly much of the software is marketed the same way.I originally had Norton / Symantec products installed on my computer.
Antivirus
Utilities
Crash Gaurd
Clean Sweep / Internet Sweep...

Life was easy, just hit live update and stay current.Renew the subscription every year. PROTECTION or so I thought.
Problems were usually encountered when trying to run Windows system tools because the Symantec products would not turn off during these applications.Had to go in and manually disable Symantec apps. unless of course you chose to run the Norton Utilities then all was good.
One day I get the notice to renew the subscrition for my Norton product.
"the product you are using is no longer supported by Symantec.You must choose one of the following packages to continue to recieve.... blah, blah ,blah"
Like a fool I accepted their upgrade package to Norton Internet Security 2004.
After installing their new product what performance my machine did have went straight into the toilet.
Their software hogged up the resources so bad that the machine was useless for anything except email.
The worst part was their software still was no good at snagging spyware, adware and malware.Symantec was slow on the draw when it came to this market and they got left behind.They are still taking baby steps.
It seems to me that maybe Symantec is ,like a lot of big businesses end up after a while, suffering from N.I.H.S. (not invented here syndrome) .That is to say ,if they did not develop,buy/aquire or outright steal an invention or product they will deny the existance of it or try to defame it because it poses a threat to their "market share".

I had to install Spybot S&D to help root out the threats it can detect in my computers.This is something the Symantec product was incapable of doing.

After suffering with Symantec for two more years I again was sent another renewal notice proclaiming that my"new" 2 year old internet security software was obsolete and a new upgraded version was available for about 50 bucks or so ,disc optional.Disc of course I want the disc I'm payin' for it so send it!
This time I got smart & opted out because of the smell.
Symantec stole a page right out of the Microsoft playbook.Trying to sell bits and pieces of what was probably in the original version of the software as a totally "new " software version every two years.
If it makes billions it must be a good business model.
I grew weary of their slick marketing antics (sym - antics) and have since gone elsewhere for antivirus protection that is less expensive and not a systems resource hog for all my machines.
The real eye opener was uninstalling their software and finding out how much junk it leaves behind.It had roots everywhere.
And I thought AOL & Real Player were hard to get rid of.
Although I have 3 newer computers now we still use the old one as a "Mule" for performing mundane tasks and letting grand children play games on.
It can actually run applications now that will do some meaningful work with out hanging up all the time.

I do not begrudge Symantec ,or any business for that matter ,the right to make a profit and/or improve their products.I just do not appreciate being played by their marketeering department.
It's like every two years they were trying to tell you they had reinvented toilet paper.Hey guess what? Its still toilet paper.:

The information superhighway is littered with wrecks of old hardware and software that shoulda ,coulda, woulda , if only.
Auditor:A person who goes in after the battle is lost and bayonets the wounded.
Attorney: A person who goes in after the auditors to strip the bodies.
In the end the attorneys end up consuming what money is left.
Just keep making the best product you know how and don't take any crap from some corporate monolith.

 

[swamper777]

You asked: "If you think that anti-spyware companies should fight spyware creators instead of each other, please send an email to ASC members of your choice, found here, and/or to the ASC itself, at asc@cdt.org."

I've been working in networking security for more than a decade, and in the computer business since 1982. I installed NIS 2007 alongside Spybot, ignoring the warning, and both appear to be working just fine.

I like Spybot!

That said, here's my answer: None of the above.

Here are my reasons why, given the other choices you listed. I'll follow with what I believe is the best course of action.

1. Yes! Detect NIS completely! - And do what? If you remove NIS, software from a much larger and long-trusted entity in the computer security field, it will only hurt Spybot's reputation.

2. Yes, but detect only some harmless files to wake up people. - Sadly, human nature being what it is, this will only cause people to recognize that you have a beef with a much larger and long-trusted entity in the computer security field. Again, while it might cause some people to doubt Symatec's integrity, it will cause many people to doubt

3. No, please waste our donations to go through legal channels, instead of using them to fight malware. - Why waste anything? I fear that Symantec has both time and money on it's hands, and if they haven't resolved the issue yet, they're not likely to resolve it at all.

Additional thoughts: Symantec, like any corporation, would love to take over the world, becoming the best of the best of the best, and reaping the corresponding profits. They didn't think very seriously about spyware a few years back, but Spybot did. Now they'd like to add that feature to NIS, but know that they will face non-winable and potentially very expensive legal actions if their implementation of it looks too much like your own. So, they've taken a softer approach by adding the warning label and giving users a chance to unintall Spybot.

It's simple competition, combined with what might possibly be construed as "unfair business practices." However, that would take a lot of time and money to prove that in court, and Symantec might actually have a valid "incompatibility" built into NIS 2007 which would seal their deal. It's unlikely that any court would be able to see through the fact that the incompatibility was either built-in, or believe that Symantec had any compelling legal reason to work out a solution to the incompatability with you or others.

Thus, here's what I think you should do: Continue with your resolution to bring a motion in front of the ASC to expel Symantec for damaging the ASC through its practices of illegal improper competition and libel. Although the lack of the ASC membership label in Symantec's advertising won't hurt them materially, it will give them significant pause for thought, and it might prompt them to come to the table and reconsider the "incompatability issue" and work out a solution with you. Second, it will send a clear message to other ASC members that excluding the others through "incompatibilities" is a no-no. Third, if, after bringing the ASC motion were leaked to the press, the negative attention would do far more to motivate Symantec to play fair than all the legal action and ASC motions combined, if it's spun right.

Thus, I'd also recommend you change your web page to simply report that there's an apparent incompatability, but a thorough series of tests has clearly demonstrated that no such compatabilities exist, and that users are encouraged to continue the install without removing Spybot Search and Destroy, as doing so would seriously reduce overall system security by removing functions which are not a part of the NIS suite.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Steven L. Janss, President
Jansys Information Systems

 

[PepiMK]

It's finally there!
http://www.antispywarecoalition.org/documents/:

Conflicts Resolution Document
Anti-Spyware software, as part of its operation, regularly interfaces with parts of a computer's operating system that control specific and low-level pieces of architechture. Multiple pieces of software all attempting to operate on the same low-level controls can cause conflicts. This document is intended to provide voluntary guidelines within the Anti-Spyware industry to assist in avoiding and resolving conflicts between suites of Anti-Spyware software and to better serve consumers.

The guidelines are probably not perfect, but a huge step towards fair competition (right now, it speaks about voluntary guidelines, which may be the reason we hear about Norton 360 from you instead of from Symantec). Here's another quote from the ASCs press release, which asks for comments (please do not spam them with flame wars ):

As is the case with all ASC materials, both the Best Practices and the Conflict Identification and Resolution Process are intended to be living documents that evolve with the rapidly changing software environment. The ASC will hold an official public comment period for the next month. To comment, visit http://www.antispywarecoalition.org/comments/ .

Well, let me use this post to thank anyone who has commented here, giving us moral support (that was indeed very helpful when the frustration came again up from time to time). Oh, and next to the moral support, this has also inspired an idea about how we could give more power into the hands of our users... can't speak of any details yet since its not finished, but rest assured that it'll lead to a solution that should satisfy all voters on this topic :

 

[simon_naji]

Can I reinstall spybot?

I joined the forums because of this very issue, having just been forced to remove Spybot when I had to update to Norton Internet Security 2007.

My question is a very practical one. If I reinstall Spybot while Norton is still on my machine, am I going to run into problems?

Thanks in advance.

Simon

 

[md usa spybot fan]

simon_naji:

Many people have apparently have installed Norton Internet Security 2007 without uninstalling Spybot. But to answer your question directly, according to the following Symantec support article you can not only install Norton Internet Security 2007 with Spybot installed as long as you answer the TeaTimer registry change pop-up correctly, but you can also reinstall Spybot after the installation of Norton Internet Security 2007:

• Message: "Spybot - Search & Destroy has detected an important registry entry that has been changed." when installing Norton Internet Security 2007
  http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/sharedtech.nsf/0/2f5f420bd905ac77882571e0005e8f21?OpenDocument

Note: The original reference to that article was published by macbd1 in the following post:

• http://forums.spybot.info/showpost.php?p=54074&postcount=117

 

[nOInfectIOn]

It's finally there!
http://www.antispywarecoalition.org/documents/:


The guidelines are probably not perfect, but a huge step towards fair competition (right now, it speaks about voluntary guidelines, which may be the reason we hear about Norton 360 from you instead of from Symantec).

At the moment I am testing WindowsBeforeLindenCare and there has been no problem with Spybot during installation... The big M only wanted to kill NIS :
-ion